Angela Murphy's Post

Preaching to the Choir

Angela Murphy | 06.09.08 | 10:13 AM |

(1 rating)

Over the weekend I received a forwarded email from a family member, created apparently, to generate fear. During the next few months as we get closer to the American Presidential election, I'm sure we will hear nasty things about both candidates and I'm equally sure that both candidates possess unique merits and will do the best job they can, if elected.

What I don't understand is the propaganda being sent around with biblical quotes as "evidence" that Obama is the Anti-Christ. You may laugh and wonder why this upsets me. Of course it seems absurd. But it is my perception about the fact that this seems so obviously absurd, which is bothering me this morning. That is my perception, and most likely the perception of anyone reading this blog, because we belong to the “choir.” We are a community of like-minded individuals. Not that we all agree on everything, I’m sure we don’t. But if anyone reading this actually believes Obama is the Anti-Christ I’d be quite surprised.

I’m sure some of you will not vote for him and I whole heartedly support the democratic process in this country (when it is not tampered with). You may disagree with Obama’s positions on healthcare or Iraq or his willingness to negotiate with terrorist countries. But it seems that some otherwise logical, thoughtful, intelligent people believe the fear-mongering propaganda enough to forward emails claiming that a well-educated, articulate, good hearted man is trying to destroy our country from the most powerful position, in fulfillment of scriptures!

So here is my question to you, reader…How do we reach good, honest, hard-working people we love, with closed minds?

Many of our teleseminar guests have talked about ‘meeting people where they are’ or allowing people to grow at their own pace. And perhaps it is my own personal growth I need to focus on and not try to expand someone else’s beliefs. But what good are we doing in the world if we can’t communicate thoughts and ideas about personal and planetary transformation beyond the “choir?”

I’d be interested in hearing about successful interactions you may have had with people when addressing irrational beliefs rooted in fear. And any successful methods you’ve developed to actually communicate (not just avoid) discussing topics like this.

Thanks,
Angela

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Member Comments:

Obama fight back

Submitted by Pamir Kiciman on June 12, 2008 - 9:24am.

The campaign of Sen. Barack Obama, D-Illinois -- still battling rumors about the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee's religion, heritage, wife and even his citizenship -- today launched a Snopes-like myth-busting website in an attempt to correct the record.

http://www.fightthesmears.com/

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Whitey

Submitted by Butterfly-Bee on June 12, 2008 - 2:27pm.

Unencumbered
Mercy, Mercy, me. If Ms. Obama said "whitey", I say, "So what?" I haven't heard that word in ages. RUSH LIMBAUGH is the one who discovered this supposed sin. I suggest we refresh our memories with the number of lynchings in this country, and the absence of an anti-lynching law. I'm thinking of a particular website: www.withoutsanctuary.org. Put the information in that next to someone being called "whitey" and see how you feel. Caution: The pictures are very disturbing.

According to Jana Evans Brazeil of the University of Cincinnati, there are 2805 documented victims of lynch mobs killed between 1882 and 1930. Most were black. On average, she states this means one black man, woman or child was murdered once a week during those years.
Barbara

Courtesy and respect

Submitted by Ken Ebert on June 10, 2008 - 10:53am.

Hi Angela. You ask: "How do we reach good, honest, hard-working people we love, with closed minds?" Thanks for the question.

I often remember how the late Kurt Vonnegut wrote of how courtesy often succeeds when love fails. He said in an interview, "Love does fail all the time, you know, and it makes people vicious".

Being respectful is a good first step in dealing with the bigotry of folks. But that does include being willing to meet folks where they are. If contentiousness is where they are at and you come at them with the superiority of the harmonious approach you've lost them from the gitgo. So much of language is couched in the the gray areas around the syntax and lexical procedure. A territorial fella isn't going to grok a "no boundaries" approach, rather will see it as a threat; and a weak posture at that. Like telling a depressive person "Cheer up!", or telling a nihlist or cynic "lighten up!". If we risk being percieved as self important and/or "superior" we can't expect any change aside from a hardening of an already stolid stance.

There is also wisdom in letting folks to their own learning. But assuming that oneself is not an agent of their edification is perhaps even more arrogant than assuming that oneself is an agent of their edification. Some of our management at work or is, to some extent, influenced by "non-violent communication" (NVC). I told my supervisor that NVC is fine if everybody is on the same page; but it is worthless if it is used in a coercive manner with people who act from what Castaneda called "the obsessive manipulation of the known". The policies influenced by an NVC outlook can so easily be turned into a vehicle for persecution by folks who see this tendency toward passivity as a sign of weakness or actual disinterest expressed as fiegned concern.

Courtesy can certainly include playing the game of the other, the way they are used to playing it. As Barbara mentionened, jocularity is a great opener of locked doors. But remember: laughter is just as universal as yawns. Thinking back, also, I remember Stuart Wilde's admonition that to help people, if you must help them, it is better to get below them and lift them up than it is to pull them up from above. They are much more likely to trust if they still have some connection to the ground - if they are being uplifted rather than being dangled in mid air by some do gooder. Like the gang mentality kids I work with: they hear me much better if I piss them off once in a while. They are used to feeling angry, and such a sense of security can become a bridge where once was a row boat.

In closing, I suspect we must first admit our desire to be heard before we can be heard.

~ Ken

***

from Rodney Crowell, "Preachin' to the Choir" ~~~~

"When I'm standing at Saint Peter's gate and trying to slip on in
I might as well plead guilty to the worst of who I've been
I used to like to think I had a special way with words
But right now I'm convinced I've more in common with the birds
I'm not ready to retire so
I'll keep on Preachin' to the choir"

Non Violent Communication

Submitted by Butterfly-Bee on June 10, 2008 - 3:52pm.

Unencumbered
I'm happy to know that I don't need to use NVC all the time. I would get an F.
Barbara

Courtesy

Submitted by Angela Murphy on June 10, 2008 - 1:25pm.

Ken, thanks for responding to the question...

I particularly apprecitated: "Stuart Wilde's admonition that to help people, if you must help them, it is better to get below them and lift them up than it is to pull them up from above."

A very wise perspective to uplift rather than dangle.

Angela

Your concern is not unfounded...

Submitted by Jon Watts on June 10, 2008 - 12:08am.

Angela,

First, thank you for being you. I felt him being called the antichrist even before I read your post. His rise is notable. He is relatively unknown, from an obscure past. Few know his true agenda.

Having said that, his purpose is obviously great. He may win. Despite his existant challenge to recent ways of political being, we may need to go where he is leading. "Change" may not end up making us happy, but we will surely grow in the developing experience. As Mom would say, "Let go and let God"

Respectfully,

Jon

Change

Submitted by Angela Murphy on June 10, 2008 - 12:17pm.

Hello Jon,

Thank you for being you too! It is funny how things happen when we let go (and let God)... yesterday I did get an email response from the family member who sent the antichrist message saying that maybe the email was not accurate and we'll see what happens in the future. And then I got a forwarded email from someone else with the exact opposite perspective claiming Obama to be a "Lightworker"... some kind of messenger sent to this planet to help us all...I had to laugh. We are living in times of extreme perspectives and we do need to all just let go and allow it to unfold trusting that the change is going to come and it will be whatever it is we need to grow.

Angela

Preaching to the Choir

Submitted by Butterfly-Bee on June 9, 2008 - 5:11pm.

Unencumbered
Hi Angela,
This is going to be hard to explain. In fact, many people will wonder how I could joke around about this. Now, if someone told me that Obama was the Antichrist, I would say, "You've got to be kidding!" A friendly, jocular approach seems to soften biggots, if you are a woman.

When Hilary Clinton was giving her speech last Saturday, I was eating at a fast food restaurant. The TV was on. Two men who were in their 70's were sitting in front of me...watching the TV. I said that I had voted for Obama, but that Clinton was giving an excellent speech. A conversation ensued. The men felt that Obama would put only African-Americans in positions of power, and that black people were not really religious. I started laughing, and shared my Bronx, NY experience. The people of color in the Bronx were mostly very Christian. The men reacted with, "They've got her." I said, "I don't know what you are going to do now. If I were a man, you could hit me but..." We laughed. They, of course, were not wanting Clinton to be President, either. Then I said that I had lived in Bryson City for 17 years, minus 3 in NYC. Still, I declared that I would always be an outsider. One man smiled and said that I just needed to change my beliefs. We said our goobyes. No one was angry. Extremely opposing minds met in a few moments of friendliness.
I think this connection works much better than debate, or angry argument.
Barbara

Jocularity

Submitted by Angela Murphy on June 10, 2008 - 12:10pm.

Hi Barbara,

Thanks for the response... yes, keeping things light often works better. And that is sometimes more easily done when talking with strangers you never have to see again. Family can be a little more challenging - but that must be where the unconditional love comes in!

The conversation you had at the fast food restaurant surprises me. How could anyone have the perception that black people are not very religious?

Sounds like you handled it well with your humor.

peace,
Angela

Non-religious Black People

Submitted by Butterfly-Bee on June 10, 2008 - 3:38pm.

Unencumbered
Angela,
I suppose they don't know any black people. I've NEVER heard anyone make the claim that black people aren't religious until...

It's a small town. I will see those men again. Again, we'll talk...maybe a little deeper.

I have an uncle whom I dearly love. He loves Rush Limbaugh! (and me)
We get along very well even though we have different opinions. Mainly, I believe it is because he is willing to think about others' viewpoints. There are some family members with whom talking seems (is?) impossible. In fact, my land line is unplugged so that my brother cannot call us. Do I love him? I wish I could say yes. I can only say "I don't know." Unconditional love? Sometimes I wonder how to generate it.
Blessings,
Barbara

Open Heart to Closed Mind

Submitted by Jeffery DeCelles on June 9, 2008 - 11:29am.

Angela, the only approach I can recommend is to ask the holder of a belief to enlighten me. If I come to them from genuine "not-knowing", seeking to know their mind, most will eagerly tell me.
If I can encompass the story being told, gentle exploration of epistemic underpinnings can begin.
In my experience, a fanatic minority will be resolutely resistant to any exercise of rational analysis, but the majority will, if encouraged to plumb to the foundational assumptions implicit in any position, be at least a little open to alternate perspectives.
Stressed people are less rational, and many are now chronically stressed. This presents profound challenges to dialog.
The fearful crave certainty, and suffer diminished analytical capacity. Old, familiar falsehoods are likely to be preferred over novel truth.
My guess is, a closed mind is a stressed mind, so step one is to put my subject at ease. Much like in chiropractic adjustment, relaxation supports movement.

Am I makin' sense?

JED

Perfect Sense

Submitted by Angela Murphy on June 9, 2008 - 1:00pm.

Thanks Jeffrey, your comments are insightful and helpful. The chiropractic analogy is particularly useful and a wonderful challenge, since it requires being in a relaxed state myself. Often times when faced with irrational ideas/beliefs the reactive mind wants to respond first.

Seeking to understand the other's perspective (regardless of how absurd it seems) is certainly a good place to start.

Gratefully,
Angela

Seeking understanding

Submitted by John K Arnold on June 10, 2008 - 10:10am.

Seeking understanding seems a good way to be or maybe a better way is to say a useful way to be. In writing these posts, I seek to understand my world, my universe, and my consciousness by writing things out.

This string of posts, I find useful as a way to not just look at ways I sort things out, but look at ways I relate to others and others to me.

When something "hits me" I ask what is it about this I have a charge on? What is it about me, not them, that brings up a reaction in me?

Now, in this circumstance, because I do not hold strongly Christian beliefs, calling someone anti-Christ does not hit me much. Many years ago, I realized there were things that I had a charge on and so were places people could "push my buttons". Over the years, I found one of the best first steps for me to take when I find my buttons being pushed, is to be happy about it. This may seem silly. I think of this as like discovering I have an infection going on and now that I am aware of it, I can take care of it. Happiness is usually not my first reaction. My first reaction may be irritation, anger, or maybe fear. Once I realize I am re-acting then I know this is an area in me to look at.

For me, it is important to keep in mind that it is me having the re-action. It is also important for me to realize that my re-action is just that, mine. Others may have no re-action at all or a very different reaction.

Once I have consciously moved out of reaction, then I have a chance to more clearly evaluate what is going on. I can then see if what the person said has some validity for me. I can see if I can understand the other person's viewpoint.

In this circumstance, I would see if I could look thru the eyes and be in the consciousness of a person who believes there is an anti-Christ and who would see Obama as one.

Our minds will always come up with reasons to prove we are not insane. Logic is often used here as over time (meaning millennia), most of us have become so infected with the truth of logic or the logic of truth, that there is no conscious awareness that it is even working.

An example

I grew up in Jacksonville, Florida=. It was the South of the 1950's. I was not religious. Occasionally, I would go with a friend to their Southern Baptist church. More than once, I heard the preacher saying.

"There is a devil and the devil is out to get your soul (or something like that, if not your soul, then maybe settle for the new TV your family just got). The devil is amongst us. He is here, right here in Jacksonville (I never figured out why the devil wanted to come to Jacksonville as there were lots more interesting places to go)"

"The devil has already got to some people. I myself have seen the devil (lots of nodding)"

"I am telling you this and anyone who tells you this is not true, the devil has already got to"

It still amazes me when I hear of all the ways the devil is working to get people. Well, I guess if you feel the devil is in your brain, then that explains a lot. I 've been having some trouble with one of my cars. I wonder if the devil got in my engine.

Here is a look at the logic. First a statement, "The Bible is the word of God." Then "The word of God is the Truth". Then "The Bible says there is a devil." Following the logic, if the Bible is the word of God and the word is God is the Truth, and then the bible being the word of God must be the Truth.

Now they have established using logic that the Bible is The Truth, not a truth, but The Truth.

Now, the next part is that the Bible says, (this is a phrase most fundamentalist Christians like to use as that gives them power over others that buy into this logic) "There is a devil." Then "the devil is bad (the Bible says so and so it be true)". If you really want to see anger, question the basic premise that the Bible is the word of God. Their reality is built on this premise and we see that there are those that would rather kill others than question this tightly held belief. Patriotism can be like this as well, but that is another topic.

So, the preacher tells the member that the Devil is here and then covers his butt by saying that if someone says differently then they are working with the devil. This only works for those that accept the main beliefs and are unable to step out the logic truth infection.

It seems Angela's situation is close to this. It is not the devil but the anti-Christ here. We could substitute that or something else. It becomes fun and clearer when we substitute something we find ridiculous into the logic. Let's try reptilian aliens from another galaxy.

First we must setup a prime belief in reptilian aliens. Once we have established that maybe by using science. Science is often used this way as well. A clue is when someone says all scientists have consensus on _______. All scientists never agree on anything and much, if not all of what science has believed has been changed, found to either not be so and modified based on more current findings. If science was stagnant, there would no IONS.

So, if a person believed that there are reptilian aliens invading earth, and they have infiltrated our government, then Obama is a reptilian alien. Once he is inaugurated, he will tear off his fake human costume and show his real self.

If you found this ridiculous, then what is it about the anti-Christ situation that is a problem? Most likely, it is some belief that a person has that it might be so. It takes some agreement in the belief for it to affect us. If it seems completely ridiculous, then it is more likely we will see the person as not being completely with us.

This leads to another issue, authority. What if someone we hold to be an authority says that reptilian aliens have invaded, then what?

We are in a time that is allowing us to see consciousness more and more clearly (this is a statement, maybe this is so, maybe not). I find it a useful viewpoint. I find it more helpful to see if something is useful rather than if it is right.

So, I am happy the person gave me a way to look into my own conscious and so become a little more awake.

John

Anti-Christ

Submitted by Butterfly-Bee on June 10, 2008 - 3:49pm.

Unencumbered

Hi John,
A lot of good thinking...

Even if one does not believe in the the Anti-Christ, saying Obama is the AC can cause many problems for him. That is because many folks do believe the Anti-Christ will come.
Barbara

Charge

Submitted by Angela Murphy on June 10, 2008 - 1:10pm.

Hello John,

You are absolutely right... I did examine that in myself last night... why did I have such a "charge" on the comment. And your example of the reptilian alien was good - I laughed out loud at the thought of Obama pulling off his human head to reveal his true alien self at the inauguration.

Thanks for the insight and the laugh!

Angela

In my universe

Submitted by John K Arnold on June 9, 2008 - 1:26pm.

Hi Angela,

In my universe, I find it does not work to relate mind to mind. By mind, I mean the part of us we often, maybe usually identify ourself with. This could be called our ego mind or some such thing. I think most everyone here understands this.

I have some blogs where I have talked about relating I to I, where I is the BIG I or the consciousness that is aware of being aware. In this consciousness the issues simply are not issues. Here are two links to blogs here that I wrote. This is very practical for me. For me, I see my world shift almost instantly and timelessly when I shift.

Seeing I to I
http://www.shiftinaction.com/node/6736

Dog Whisperer, the Mind and How to Think Like a Chef
http://www.shiftinaction.com/node/6677
I don't know if I explained this so it was well understood. I has to do with relating to our minds and others minds. It is very useful in situations like the one you are describing.

This one looks at authority and certainty as Jeffery mentioned above.
Unconscious Authoritarian Thinking and Believing
http://www.shiftinaction.com/node/6351

Thanks for bringing this up as it is something I enounter as well. I now, thank the universe for showing me a part of me that I still have a charge on. When I know where I have a charge, I know to release it.

This would be a really good group exploration into the consciousness here. We could see what becomes visible.

John

BTW: So what is so wrong about talking with, going over, discussing and even preaching to the choir. A choir can learn a new song or find a way to sing a song they know in a new a different way.

The Choir

Submitted by Angela Murphy on June 10, 2008 - 1:14pm.

Thanks for the links....

I didn't mean to diminish the value of communicating with the choir!

You're right, we can learn new ideas and new ways to look at old ideas...and we get wonderful opportunities to explore and discuss with each other every Tuesday and Wednesday on the teleseminars and during the community discussion times.